[EVA] Positive Evidence

[Federico Dominguez Pousada]

> > The first time I heard about patterning was yesterday. I heard other
> > theories about the same issue like the "Soul imprintation". But I never
> saw
> > the fundaments of the patterning issue.
>
> I will rephrase my statement: if you knew this matter had been already
dealt
> with before, in a satisfactory way at that, would you go through the
trouble
> of re-explaining it wholely or would you suppose your interlocutor should
> browse **the ML archives** himself?

I supposed that matter was dealt, but I never thought in a satisfactory way,
as I don't quite agree with the soul imprinting theory. What I meant is that
if someone wants to rebuke my ideas about the subject, I'm always open to
new ideas, the least thing that person could do is to give a coherent
fundament for it. Not just throwing a "you're wrong. I won't tell you why,
go browsing". What kind of discussion is that?


> > Seems a little strange that all their hopes where that Kyouko had to die
> > until the Eva could work. If Kyouko had a contact experiment, and that
> > experiment led to 400% synch rate (as happened to Yui), and thus
> dissolved.
> > Why bring her back if they only needed her dead?
>
> Why do you suppose she had a 400% sync rate, dissolved, and was brought
> back? It's already been said that such thing failed, and it wouldn't make
> sense that Kyouko's case be such, even if we count her mental illness as
an
> "unsuccessful" outcome. There is no reason not to mantain that the only
time
> they attempted this (and I believe they even say it was attempted only
once)
> was with Yui.
>

For all we know 400% synch means dissolving. We see that in episode 20. We
also see a glimpse about a salvage process, whose origins came back from
Yui's accident. So what is reasonable to say is that Yui went through a 400%
synch rate on her contact experiment. And then her soul ended up on Eva-01's
core. If Kyouko's soul ended up on Eva-02 core, its reasonable to think she
also went through a contact experiment, wich means, she also went through
400% synch rate, wich also means she was dissolved. She came back, t'seems
they did salvage her.

> > Where is it negated?
>
> I'd say "see Brendan's post", but actually see below and later on.
>
> > So because souls cannot be digitized they cannot be copied? Copy would
> > mean digitize a soul to then put on a vessel (be it body or core)? I
don't
> > think that's positive. Copy means digitization?
>
> What does copy mean, to begin with? What's a "copy" of a soul, to you?
> Also, why would they have copied only Rei I? Why not have a copy for each
> Rei, so that they wouldn't be at risk of loosing Rei II/III and have no
way
> to complete Gendou's scenario? Because there is only one Rei soul. Because
> Ritsuko says so.

Perhaps because the only way to copy a soul is to put it into a core,
probably they can (and I hate this term) 'imprint' a soul in a core. Why not
copy more Reis? Because t'seems they knew her soul would be back to another
body. But they needed a compatible soul for Eva-00... if Rei's soul cannot
be copied, then whose soul is in there?


>So, when she mentions that digitalization isn't possible,
> we can take it to mean that such would be the only option to have
something
> usable for their purposes, namely activation of an Eva. But she says it is
> impossible.

OR perhaps to imply that the DP has personality, but not soul, and that's
the only thing needed to synchronize. But also there's the question that if
any personality can synch with any resident soul. I don't think so,
experience denies it. Again, Shinji's personality synchs with Yui, Asuka's
one with Kyouko, REI'S ONE WITH YUI, so whos is that other resident soul
compatible with Rei's personality?

>Thinking of some other, extremely arbitrary concept to express
> "copying a soul" already suggests that we're adding something to the show
> that isn't there. See later for more details.

And patterning doesn't? Why? I don't mean to add something to the show when
saying "copy", I just try to understand why there's the situation of the
same soul on 2 different places at the same time.

>
> > I meant, that if Rei's DP only works with residents souls compatible
with
> > Rei (Yui or Rei herself), then Kaworu's DP would only work with resident
> > souls compatible with Kaworu. The only one we know is Kaworu himself.
Thus
> > all MP Evas would need Kaworus soul as resident for the DP to work.
>
> Quite frankly, I don't think so. I think that her DP works with Eva-01
until
> the patterns can convincingly trick that unit to think there's Rei in the
> plug, and Rei can pilot because either she's affine to the body or her
body
> is affine to the soul. I take the first to be the most likely since Kaworu
> has a similar argument to offer. Now, about the Eva Series souls...I think
> there's none and that when they resonate with Giant Rei they're actually
> being a vehicle for her own atfield. If you think that Shinji's classmates
> were supposed to visit Germany by the end of the show and that bit got
> scrapped, you can quite suppose that they intended to imbue the Series
with
> their souls. Which gives you a hint of how unsound the whole soul thing
is,
> after all. There comes a point in which this unsoundness becomes evident
and
> the whole argoment moot.

Eva series not having ATF? Then:
EOE:
"Shigeru: The Eva series' AT Fields are resonating! "

The Eva Series ones are resonating, not somebody elses. Its stated clear.
Also there's an image on one of these scenes where a computer shows
something like "EVA-05 ATF"... I'll have to look for it for a screencap.

> > But what a coincidence! The warped Rei Shinji sees, the one invading him
> > from Eva, is seen only again in recycled imagery, but its the only one
of
> > those recyclings that's called "REi 1". Suspicious, huh?
>
> Suspicious. Should have to rewatch the scene, though.
>
> > The A^10 description dealt mainly with higher functions of the brain.
And
> > then as a side note the sentimental part. Even if its about a
sentimental
> > part... what kind of mother-child bond Rei has to synch with something?
To
> > synch with Yui herself?
>
> See above about Rei-Eva01, and also I believe I've already said I don't
> think she pilots Eva-00 the way others do.

If she pilots Eva-00 in a different manner, then how come Shinji synchs with
it?

>
> > Nevertheless, Kaworu states the reasons he can control the Eva. Be it
> > Gainax error or not, its not for me to judge. I only use what I see on
> that
> > scene: he says why he can control the eva extraordinarily. And then I
> figure
> > why Rei couldn't do the same thing, and I see it fits.
>
> I don't see why she wouldn't be able to do it with Eva-00.

Because Kaworu says he can control Eva-02 because he has the same body as
it, and also because it has a soul that's shutting itself up. I don't know
about the soul of Eva-00 is shutting itself up or not, but certainly I know
Rei doesn't have the same body as Eva-00.

>
> > Its not proven? Its proven by experience:
> > 1)Shinji-Yui
>
> Souls.
>
> > 2)Asuka-Kyouko
>
> Souls.
>
> > 3)Rei-Yui
> > (and on this point: what is the only common thing between Rei and Yui?
> > THEIR BODY)
>
> Mental patterns. I am guessing they depend on what Rei has been
experiencing
> so far. She has attachment to Shinji and Gendou, something Yui had too.
>
> > So then I see synchro is not about mother-child stuff, because of the
> <snip>
> > resident soul.
>
> But if you don't take the body to be the common part between Rei and Yui,
as
> I object above, then it doesn't work anymore.
>

But in order to do that you have to come with "mental attachment", something
very unpositive. What was it, Occam's razor or something? If it was mental
attachment, why then can't Gendou synch with Eva-01? They were lovers after
all.

> > Its not a concept I made ante-ex. I saw, I tried to singularize what was
> <snip>
> > determination of personal patterns.
>
> If we get down to the bottom of the show and look at Anno's reasons and
> metaphors in the show, which one comes closer, the interpretation about
> souls, feelings and mindsets or the one about flesh?

>From what can be empirically proven: flesh. Not doing so means everybody is
right. How do you know what Anno was thinking? Weber's "verstanden"? Even he
said that it wasn't accurate.

>
> > The factor would be more or less genetic. How synchro works not.
>
> Well, that's weird. The same thing is genetic from one point of view but
on
> the other one it is not. Hm.

Because synchro works by transmiting thought patterns from pilot to Eva. But
first you need a compatible soul for the pilot. That's where the flesh comes
in.

>
> > Episode 17
> > Ritsuko: As I expected, a smaller synchro-ratio than with Unit One.


> > No reason to point out that Rei synchs with Yui? Episode 14 again:
> <snip>
> > See? She synched with Yui.
>
> And, as I said, nobody is denying that.
>
> > "The SOUL is not FLESH!!!"
> <snip>
> > determined by the flesh. Post-ex.
>
> Where does flesh fit in the dummy plug case, then?

In Rei's personality. Rei was made from Yuis body. Shinji was made from
Yui's body. Both are compatible, as Shinji synchs with Eva-00 (whose soul I
affirm is Rei's) and Rei synchs with Yui. DP has Rei's personality, it will
transmit her type of thought patterns, almost as if she was there.

>
> > Why everyone here thinks that digitizing is copying?
>
> I guess because it is a way to represent in a discrete, quantizable way
some
> otherwise non-discrete information? And if you have a representation of
> something, then you *can* copy it, not to mention that if you *don't* have
> it then you *can't* do it because you don't know jack of what you're
trying
> to copy? It's a double implication, an "if and only if" situation. Try
> copying text from a book being blindfold, you'll see what I mean. Er, no
pun
> intended.

And what makes you all think that this "representation of something" has to
be digital? What about that old method to copy stuff, that kind of gum? You
put the original over it, and it retained its impression, and then putting
other pieces of paper over it, and the impression is passed. What if the
core is like that gum? synch at 400% and it will
A)Get the impression or soul
or
B)Retain the soul

In Shinjis case it was definitively case B