[EVA] Religion and Gainax was RE: [EVA] Moura interviews

[V V]

Actually they do mention China by name (rarely), and we know Seele represents the 5 countries that are still powerful:  the USA, the UK, France, Britain, Germany.  I doubt they'd make her Chinese (on top of which, she's supposed to be "European" and very "foreign")......and he doesn't like the USA.

So why Germany and not France or Britain?  Unsure.  Possibly because they were colonial powers in asia and Japan doesn't particularly like them.

--- On Tue, 12/22/09, Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [EVA] Religion and Gainax was RE: [EVA] Moura interviews
To: "The english-language evangelion mailing list." <evangelion at eva.onegeek.org>
Date: Tuesday, December 22, 2009, 2:51 PM

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Peter Svensson <sun1jack at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The Lance was found by the *Katsuragi* expedition, and who else was
>> involved, but the Japanese-to-the-core Gendo? And SEELE is headed by
>> 'Keel Lorenz' and the other German person is 'Kyoko Zeppelin'. Yes,
>> NGE is doing a real good job of evoking the Nazis or making
>> SEELE/GEHIRN seem German in any respect but a few throwaway bits of
>> dialogue and 4 names.
>
> NERV/SEELE/GEHIRN being German names is pretty important, and does factor into every single episode. That the only NERV bases we hear of are the US base that goes kaplooie and the German base, where Asuka is from, and where ostensibly their leader Keel is from, well, it's noticeable. It fades into the background easily, yes, but to say that there's no German influence on NERV is ridic. SEELE has a German name, a German leader, a base in Germany, and one of the main characters is likewise German.

...all 4 points are throwaway dialogue and names. How is Asuka very
German, besides throwaway dialogue? How is GEHIRN or SEELE or NERV
German besides their putative locations and names?

The only thing I can think of that is at all 'German' about SEELE or
NERV is a very strained analogy to the Nazis, and then only if you
deracinate all their ideas and plans, psychologize them, and ignore
the long history in Japan of grandiose revolutionary movements seeking
to create a new world. (Do I really need to give examples?)

Besides, if we were supposed to see SEELE as the inner party
leadership, wouldn't one expect even a few more Nazi symbols or
something? There's a rich body of symbolism, rhetoric, actions,
architecture etc. associated with fascism which Gainax could *easily*
have used; said body is even more available than some Kircher-style
kabbalahs.

>> Just like Japanese warships. And do not dismiss extratextual
>> motivation: the Japanese are as prejudiced as anyone else.
>
> Yes, but saying "Asuka is German because Japan likes Germany!" feels off. Otherwise we should go "Asuka should be Portuguese because Japan loves Portugal!" or the such.

The set of nations Japan loves/respects sufficiently is a small one,
though. As I said, there were only a few possibilities to begin with,
and they are narrowed even more by in and out of universe
considerations (the UN, Anno and mecha's disdain for America, etc.).
At that point, asking why Germany and not Portugal is either ignoring
all the relevant conditions* or it's like the lottery winner asking
'well yes, someone had to win, but why *me*, exactly?' There may be no
deep satisfying reason; it is just the movement of atoms in the void.

* rich, powerful, well-known to Japan, with close historical ties, not
nationally cliched ("G'day mate!") and ideally not too close (in my
scripts, the Koreas, China, and Russia never once are mentioned by
name) or ancient enemies

>> Germany isn't exactly known for its red-hair; that's more northern and
>> western (Ireland, Scotland etc.). In fact, if that's the reason, Asuka
>> should be half-American:
>
> It is possible for natural red hair to be found in foreigners is what I was getting at. You can theoretically get red haired Germans, so Asuka's hair color is fine. Evangelion really does put effort into making the hair colors realistic. Ritsuko's eyebrows being the best example of this.

And you can also theoretically get red-haired Japanese!
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Red_hair#Modern

If you're willing to appeal to very tiny populations or possibilities,
there's no need for Germany.

> It's unclear if that is the case or not. There is evidence within the series (and reinforced through other sources) that in fact, Adam and Lillith are the proper names for the Sources of Life, and the Judeo-Christian tradition appropriated those names. While it simplifies things to say "those are just SEELE's code names" the show never states such.

> Kaworu, who would be in a position to know, does in fact use Adam and Lillith.

Why would he be? He's not tremendously well-informed (extended scene
glitches aside), nor would his Adam-soul simply grant him tons of
knowledge - Rei, after all, is pretty darn ignorant throughout.

> Within the context of the series, especially given the connection between the people who wrote the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls and the Essens, it is very possible that those aren't code names. It doesn't mean that they are actually THE Adam and Lillith, just that the entire Judeo-Christian tradition is based on misunderstandings about space aliens and their sharp pointy sticks.

Or it could be retconning and reading into vague suggestions. Note
that you're postulating that the Seeds of Life are the religious
foundation *and* that the foundation was built on 'misunderstandings',
which makes the theory that much more complex. Any theory can be made
tenable with enough application of 'oh, they were just mistaken about
something' and 'they were lying for various reasons', after all, and
so one should be wary of those justifications.

-- 
gwern
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