REAL ending, was:Re: [EVA] Final Genesis (SPOILERS)

[Robert Day]

MugenHunter, quoting me in part, wrote :
> 
> >I disagree.  Instrumentality/Complementation is described several >times as 
> >a merging of all Humanity into a single entity.  The final >scene shows 
> >clearly that individual identities are preserved.
> 
> Well, his AT field was gone, but the individual souls still were there. So, 
> while there was no borders between people, they still existed.
> 

I see no evidence that anyone's AT field was gone.  If there is no AT 
field, how can there be individual souls?  Please enlighten me.

> Besides, they all said the _same thing_ all did the _same thing_ and all 
> responded in the same way. Everyone was unified. No one was telling Shinji 
> that lie
> 

I assume this was chopped off mid-thought, but even so:
Perhaps they all _did_ want to congratulate him ?
It was a pretty big thing he did, after all.

> >Can you demonstrate any line/scene in the series where it tells us 
> > >individuality is preserved, rather than dissolved?
> 
> Can you prove that the
> 

Not unless you give me *some* idea what you want me to prove.  Give me a 
chance here ^_^.

> >As to it being a bright unworldly place, that is just in contrast to >the 
> >dark, unworldly place he is in just before.
> 
> He's floating above a planet! Blue-Green background! Shinji's not on Earth. 
> And if he's not on Earth, then he's part of the instrumentality, because a 
> place like that doesn't exist in reality. If Gainax wanted to show that 
> contrast, they could have used a pastoral scene, or a sunny beach. Instead, 
> they showed a unnatural place.
> 

And when he was in the dark theatre he was in... the instrumentality.  
The unnatural setting was, to me, a deliberate mechanism to make the 
whole scene more abstract.  None of the last episode was meant to be 
taken literally.

> >I agree the change implies a choice was made, but not that it >indicates a 
> >choice for Complementation.
> 
> Then what was the choice?
> 

That, as they say, is left as an exercise for the student.

> >However,  the imagery does not show Shinji in that Alternate world >after 
> >making a choice.  Not the one with Rei's panties nor the >Allegro non 
> >Troppo style limbo.
> 
> He is shown in _a_ alternate world. And he learned from that experience that 
> he could be happy. Not in reality, but that he could be happy through 
> fantasy worlds..
>

He is shown several alternate worlds.  In some he can be happy, in some 
he can be anything.  
 
> >I agree the place where he "is" changes significantly when he makes >his 
> >choice, but not to one of the Alternate worlds we have seen.
> 
> But it is a nice, ahppy, place wher enothign bad is shown towards Shinji. 
> The theater was sterile, and the misty place was dark.
> 

Yes, because the other people there are congratulating him on his 
decision, which they agree with.  It could be either choice, 
complementation or return.

> >This is interesting, and I wonder who's interpretation this is.
> 
> Some one at Gainax, responsible for commentary. Anno-tachi would be involved 
> to some degree.
> 
> >I have not read this book, so please give us some context and >background, 
> >if you can.
> 
> Well, at the bottom of each page is a checkpoint, which gives some 
> commentary or explanations of the parts of the episodes.
>

Not quite what I meant.  What I am seeking to establish is some frame of 
reference.  When was the book produced: before or after EoE ? before or 
after the TV show was aired ?  Was this commentary on the original 
storyboards or on the finished product ?
 
> In reference to the end, it specifically states that Shinji's smile is the 
> same one of the Instrumentalitized, because Shinji accepted it.
> 
> >Director Anno creates a series, with a certain ending.
> >The fans scream about it, sending hate mail etc.
> >Director Anno responds "Right, you ungrateful bastards.  I bared my >soul 
> >for you and *this* is the thanks I get... Take THIS!" and >produces a movie 
> >... with a different ending.
> 
> Nope. See RCB notes. He was forced to change the ending due to money/budget. 
> EoE was always going to be the ending. In fact, the scenes from EoE seen in 
> Episode 25 were made because they were going to make EoE, but decided that 
> they couldn't afford them. The TV ending was rushed. Anno likes the ending 
> because he made something good on a limited budget/time.
> 

The RCB has its limits.  One of which is that it is post-hoc, meaning 
that many of the entries have the benefit of hindsight, enabling people 
to change their interpretations in the light of EoE having been made.  I 
repeat, as I have in my reply to George Chen, I have not read Director 
Anno anywhere say the ending to the TV series is wrong or invalid.  Nor, 
in the current context, have I read him saying that Shinji took the easy 
way out in the TV series.

> The script had to be made at a quick pace, and the original script was set 
> aside and eventually, after some revisions, became EoE.
> 

As a parable (stolen from the Gateless Gate, I fear) :

A master calligrapher was trying to write an inscription for a very 
important commission.  He worked very carefully, and his best student was 
with him, looking over his shoulder.
Each time the Master wrote, the student would say "That's not your best", 
or "You can do much better".  So the Master would write again.
The the student was called out of the room, and hurriedly the Master 
wrote, to be done before he came back.
On his return he looked at the work, and exclaimed "This is the finest 
thing you have ever done."

> >Is the first ending now invalid ?  Or changed ?
> 
> No. But it wasn't what was supposed to happen.
> 

What in this world is supposed to happen ?  Is is less true because 
Director Anno was under stress when he produced it ?

> >Is it changed by someone (even Director Anno) writing in a filmbook >after 
> >the change of heart ?
> 
> It isn't changed, but it can be explained.
> 

Maybe.  One throwaway line in a filmbook does not convince me, although 
it might if you can give me better provenance for the statement.

> >Certainly Director Anno himself has said this, that both endings are >true 
> >(I forget the citation, but I suspect it's in the archives >here).
> 
> Both are true, but not the same.
> 

Can you demonstrate this ?  So far, the evidence appears to hinge on one 
quote from the filmbook.  And even that could be a case of revisionism.
Even if we accept that the TV series ending has Shinji accepting 
Instrumentality and EoE not, these could still be reconciled.  EG:

Shinji : I accept Instrumentality.  I will become one with you for       	
		eternity.
Rest :  Congratulations (etc.) ... ad nauseam  ...
Shinji : I'm not staying in any damned cocktail party for Eternity.
		Let me out of here!!!
(Roll EoE ending ...)

>
> MugenHunter! "The above quote I agree with. The stance that they are 
> the same ending I don't."
> 

Not are, but could be.  Indeed, not even that.
My central point is that I see room  to interpret Shinji as accepting 
individuality in the TV ending.  I see it in the dialogue and scene of 
the TV series, and within that context I as yet see no strong reason to 
believe otherwise.

Rob.

robday at cyllene.uwa.edu.au

Accept the possibility of all things,
and the certainty of none.