[EVA] [EoE spoiler] Platonic World of the Forms?
AveryJH at worldnet.att.net
Thu Oct 19 01:11:25 EDT 2000
Dammit! my computer crashed just as I was finishing this reply. oh well I
guess I will re-write this.
Ok here it goes . . .
Brendan Jamieson wrote:
> Perhaps I missed this from a different thread... but what exactly is
> this "Platonic World of Forms"?
No you didn't miss a thread. The Platonic World of the Forms is philosophy.
The World of the forms is Plato's belief that there are perfect ideas. Sort
of like if I build a desk there is a perfect version of the desk in heaven.
That really isn't an accurate explanation of it if you want one you will
have to read Plato's "The Republic". Specifically the dialogue with Gorgias.
I recommend Richard Sterlings translation. It is readable and mostly doesn't
destroy Plato's original message. You could also take an intro to philosophy
When I said:
>I think the idea that EoE ends on a somewhat happy note is interesting. I
> >think there are a lot of problems you have to deal with though.
I was referring to an early post on this thread by Peter Svensson who said:
>Personally, I believe that it means that Rei/Lillith/Kaworu/Adam are no
>longer going to interfere, and that Shinji can live a (relatively) normal
No for my first theory:
I am not quite sure how to prove that the lack of music means something. I
guess it just seems to me to be a little too quite (excuse the hackneyed
expression). I think that the choice to not have any music and to just have
the sound of waves hitting the beach is symbolic. I think it is more than
just coincidence that there is such an explicit lack of music. Side with me
or not I don't think I can change your opinion.
Now you disagreed with me when I said that I thought Shinji was comfortable
when he was listening to his SDAT. Throughout the series Shinji listened to
his SDAT at the hardest times. I think that he would listen to it for
comfort. I am not sure how else you can explain its reoccurrence throughout
the series. And it is more than just a coincidence.
> Not in 'Air'; the battery out light is flashing on the SDAT display.
Just because the battery light is flashing doesn't mean that it is
completely out of juice. I know on my CD player it flashes before I run out
of battery. Not after. So the light flashing on the SDAT player could be to
show how much Shinji listens to music. How dependant on music he is.
So if you buy into my first thought that the lack of music is purposeful and
that Shinji listens to music for comfort, it would seem that the world at
the end of EoE is punishment to Shinji.
> Let who down, and how? He did the right thing in the end. The Rei head
> is just a reminder of that.
I believe that Shinji inaction is the cause of Auskas death or at the least
that is the way he sees it. If Shinji had gotten in his EVA and fought
alongside Auska they would have probably defeated the EVAs. And Auska would
be alive. So Shinji's crime in inaction or not acting soon enough. Now if
your not acting resulted in the death of someone what worse punishment could
there be than putting her body next to you? Sometimes the worst way to hurt
some one is to remind them of the things they wish they could forget.
now how exactly can you say this:
> *ahem* I am positive God/Jesus was the last thing on Anno's mind as he
> wrote that scene.
How exactly are sure what Anno was thinking? Even if that was what he was
thinking what does it really matter? EVA could mean something much greater
than what Anno intended (there I go think like a formalist again).
But I think the evidence definitely points to allegory. For example, the
cross like explosions? or are they not actually cross shaped. Like how the
Eva's that appear, to me at least, to be crucified. They sure do look to be
in the position of Christ. But maybe it is just me.
Anyway on to Theory number 2 . . .
Shinji is really the only person that exists
>Any real, factual, proof of something like this? I've heard this type of
>interpretation since EoE (er, Evangelion itself) came out. But no one
>has ever been able to really prove why this would be.
I am going to try to briefly explain solipsism and Descartes theory of
Doubt. I think this might help you better understand my theory. (Don't
construe this as a personal attack. That is not my intention. I am just
trying to give you or anyone out there who might not have the best
understanding of philosophy a little help. Brendan if you are really a
philosophy professor, forgive me.) Descartes who is probably one of the
greatest and most influential philosophers ever wrote in his book, Discourse
on Method: Meditations on First Philosophy, said "Cogito Ergo Sum" or as
more famously "I think therefore I am"(BTW: that is a horrible
mis-translation). In Meditations, Descartes questions what most people
assume is real. He questioned everything for how can you prove that anything
exists. Descartes expressed this idea in his example about the "evil
genius." He thought that reality might be an illusion created by an Evil
genius to trick him. This is sort of ala The Matrix except instead of
everyone being in the Matrix Neo would be the only real person in the
Matrix. Descartes said that he must be real because why would the mad genius
try to trick him if he was an illusion? So Descartes theory of doubt is that
you must doubt that everything exists accept yourself or to a further extent
your thoughts. Now Solipsism is a term for when people believe they are the
only person in the universe. Solipsism is usually only limited to people
with mental problems or in a depression . . . hey depression that sounds
familiar! . . . hmm I wonder who else was in a depression when he wrote
something . . . hmm? Hopefully I explained that well enough if not the only
thing I can suggest is to take a philosophy class. Or if you have any
question that relate to this E-mail me. Well philosophy class is over for
the day on with my theory. . .
I am saying that the whole Evangelion series is a metaphor for Cartesian (oh
yeah Descartes basically created geometry) doubt. Shinji is
Descartes/Neo/You and EoE is his doubting that the world exists. I'll try to
give some proof to back up this theory. The world as it exists in the theory
is the false reality. the one that the "evil genius" is trying to get Shinji
to buy into. A common trait of Solipsists is that they give up living. They
believe that there no point in trying too change this false reality. Shinji
gives up fighting in Evangelion. I believe he does it for the same reason.
He is questioning reality. I think that when he actually pilots his EVA and
the world goes Kaboom or Japan just turns into oblivion it is really Shinji
tearing down the false reality. It is him finally accepting his thoughts
that he is the only one that exists. Now as I see it in the framework of
this theory the reality outside of the false reality is either: A) the real
world. The world where the Evil Genius exists. or B) it is just another
false reality. Shinji's strangling Auska could be him trying to cope with
the frustration of finding out that everyone was fake or him expressing his
anger at being in just another false reality.
Anyway that is the way I see it.
I think if it is actually a hopeful or a somewhat happy ending there are a
lot of things you need to overcome. I am not saying you are right or wrong.
you are just as right as I am. What I am saying is that you need to explain
things like the cross shaped explosions. Or what I seem as the lack of music
in the ending.
Help me better form my opinions or criticize them. Either way it is better
than what we have been discussing.
More information about the oldeva