[EVA] Re: [spoilers] RE: EOE interpretations

[Archer]

At 09:53 PM 8/31/01 -0700, you wrote:
>And if this was really occuring, I
>don't think the visuals followed the dialog. That's all I was saying.

Okay.

>If we're to go with the telepathy route then ok, these things are not just
>in his head, they are real. So this brings us back to my assertion that the
>visuals did not follow the dialog. It sounded somewhat hopeful that humans
>could either join in Instrumentality or go back to living.

Which translation were you watching?

Shinji halted Instrumentality. People will remain as goo until they can 
individually imagine their own selves again.

>The daughter can
>change her mind after she cracks the eggs open but she won't beable to put
>the yolks back in and get chickens after that point.

Except we know that a human form is capable of reforming.

>That's the way EoE seems to me. "Yeah, you can go back to being humans,
>yay!" Then crack, the eggs are all broke, and we got Shinji and Asuka as the
>last two people on earth. This is my opinion, based on the visuals.

And its a strong argument, at that stage. We only see a small section of 
shoreline, and we only see our two heroes. We can only work with the 
information we are given. But we should work with *all* of it, IMO.

>  While
>the dialog sounded hopeful, what we're left with is a completely apocalyptic
>landscape that appears to be barren of all life. The entire mood of that
>ending seemed to invalidate any sort of a positive end to things.

Am I correct in concluding that you are disregarding dialogue evidence 
based on the "mood" as you perceive it?

"Mood is for cattle and love-play!"

>Now you may be of a different opinion here and you are more than welcome to
>it. I just have a feeling most people will have a view on this similar to
>mine.

Let's let those others speak for themselves, then.

Freedom of individual opinion, which is always raised when debating this 
show, will not stop me from arguing my points on a forum intended for such 
until some sort of consensus is reached.

> > seems to be spraying a liquid which *will form spheroid globules
> > in freefall*.
> >
>Well, this will be a point that we can agree to disagree on. Animation is
>not like live-action. In live-action, you take what you can get and you can
>try your damndest to make things look right.

I've heard this one before, too. But the facts are that we know this is the 
way fluids behave in vacuum/zero-G, and we cannot know the intent of the 
animator.

>Assuming that there are indeed both souls
>and blood globules depicted here, why make them look so similar?
>
>Ok, I'm whipping out my copy so I can watch it afresh.

As have I.

>MegaRei is gathering up the souls in her hands, the black moon in the
>center. The souls are like they're going into the moon.

Indeed.

>The crosses are still on earth, rei falls, and the black mooon gets grid
>coordinates on it, then explodes over her.

Then you will notice, I'm sure, that after the Black Moon bleeds on Lilith, 
and explodes, then the glowing cloud which I take to be the collected souls 
floats downward and in the next angle is seen to be spreading outward over 
the Earth's surface away from Lilith.

>We then get shots of absolute desolation.

(snip)

>Shinji then attempts to choke Asuka to death. WTF? He said he
>was going to stay behind to think things through, reflect on his life. So he
>progresses from choking his chicken to choking Asuka. I suppose that's more
>positive?

Relevant?

>  Shinji crumples and gasps out sobs, almost wretching, the most
>horror-stricken and helpless sort of crying I've ever heard.

Ogata Megumi is a brilliant VA.

>  I can only
>imagine someone sobbing like that if they'd just seen their entire world
>destroyed before their eyes and were coming to terms with the fact that they
>are the only person left alive, aside from the one other person in the world
>he can't stand.

Well, as far as interpretation goes, I think that's called a stretch. You 
can't tell me you know there is no hope for humanity from the way Shinji's 
crying! Disregarding your interpretation of events, just consider 
everything he's been through within the whole movie. Comforting, hopeful 
words from mother and friends aren't going to erase everything he witnessed...

>Yes, from what was mentioned they are supposed to be able to do this. I do
>not disagree that this was said. But the visuals, man, the visuals, how do
>you reconcile what is said with what is shown?

By considering ALL that is shown with respect to the dialogue information, 
and not just what is shown by itself.

>  What is said sounds positive.

As I believe was Anno's intent.

>What is shown is absolute solitude and despair.

Think of it this way: Accepting Instrumentality was the easy way, right? We 
could all lose our individuality forever and never have to be incomplete or 
do anything again. The easy way to live. But Shinji (understandably) 
rejected that, and so must deal with everything *the hard way*. The world 
is ruined. There is no civilization. Individuals won't return until they 
can each imagine themselves (however long that may take for people who 
*weren't* *in* *Evas* *during* *Third* *Impact*). THIS is the hard way to 
live. But at least it's living.

>Imagine if Star Wars was supposed to have ended positively, in
>ROTJ, and lets imagine that the explosion of the Death Star did to Endor
>what would logically follow, i.e. a planetoid station exploding near a moon
>like that would devastate it like a cosmic shotgun blast, talking total hell
>on its surface.

I'm aware of the true physical consequences of exploding an artificial moon 
in *extremely* low orbit over an inhabited planet. For anyone with a little 
spare time look through

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html

Its very interesting :)

>Ooooookay, the empire is destroyed, the rest of the galaxy is still safe,
>all is well, right? Except for the part about all Luke's friends dying, the
>heart of the rebel fleet getting anihillated, and Luke being the last human
>left alive on a dying world in a remote star system. Yeah, he can hop in
>that shuttle and fly back to civilization. You think he's gonna rebound
>after all this? I don't think so. I think he'll be an emotional vegetable
>for a long time after this.

That would have been a cool ending!

>But again, opinion, everyone is entitled. I just think that yours
>would be in the minority of those who watched it.

If you mean the minority of *everyone* who has seen EOE, then maybe. Except 
that the people who have analysed Eva as much as I have, and have accessed 
all of the literature and canon info (most members of this list and maybe a 
few other forums) *do* form the minority.

Also:
 >If
the souls are supposed to be different then why not make them blue or purple
or whatever, any color other than red? Then things would be more obvious to
the viewer.<

Don't blame him for the animators' decisions.

Also:
 >I never saw the enhanced versions of those episodes. Are the "red dots"
similar to the ones in EoE? Are they supposed to be souls or not? <

This scene was only in DEATH. The dots are very similar to the ones which 
rose from the surface as humanity was liquidated in EOE. As to their 
nature, there is no information. I think they are mainly there to look cool.

K. Oska Archer   http://www.senet.com.au/~archer
'Similarly, it's logically possible for bunnies to lay
multicoloured eggs. Unfortunately, mammalian
physiology can't produce such treasures.'