[EVA] Re: [spoilers] RE: EOE interpretations

[Greg Muir]

assertion that the
> >visuals did not follow the dialog. It sounded somewhat hopeful
> that humans
> >could either join in Instrumentality or go back to living.
>
> Which translation were you watching?

Fansub, the VKILL edition.
>
> Shinji halted Instrumentality. People will remain as goo until they can
> individually imagine their own selves again.
>
I think this is one of those left open to interpretation aspects. I agree
with you, the dialog does say what you say it does. It's just those visuals
that I'm hung up on. Nobody I know whose seen EoE has interpreted it
differently so ou can see why I'm a bit hesitant to interpret it the way you
have, despite it being a MUCH happier event.

> >The daughter can
> >change her mind after she cracks the eggs open but she won't
> beable to put
> >the yolks back in and get chickens after that point.
>
> Except we know that a human form is capable of reforming.

So they said.
>
> >That's the way EoE seems to me. "Yeah, you can go back to being humans,
> >yay!" Then crack, the eggs are all broke, and we got Shinji and
> Asuka as the
> >last two people on earth. This is my opinion, based on the visuals.
>
> And its a strong argument, at that stage. We only see a small section of
> shoreline, and we only see our two heroes. We can only work with the
> information we are given. But we should work with *all* of it, IMO.
>
If that is the case, I think a little more info should have been provided by
Anno. Normally I don't have a problem reconcilling dialog with the viusals
but in a case where they're so divergent, the problem is easy to understand.
And it's not just them on the shores of the sea of me's, it's Shinji trying
to strangle her, then breaking down. That reaction seemed so at odds to the
state of peace he had finally come to within the head trips.

Well, those are my reasons for not seeing the ending the same way as you. I
think what we can both agree on here is that a little more info for the
viewer would have been nice if Anno did not intend the dark ending.

> >  While
> >the dialog sounded hopeful, what we're left with is a completely
> apocalyptic
> >landscape that appears to be barren of all life. The entire mood of that
> >ending seemed to invalidate any sort of a positive end to things.
>
> Am I correct in concluding that you are disregarding dialogue evidence
> based on the "mood" as you perceive it?

Mood and actions of the two after they are on the shore.
>
> "Mood is for cattle and love-play!"

Oh go play your balliset you lump-faced troubador! :)
>
> >Now you may be of a different opinion here and you are more than
> welcome to
> >it. I just have a feeling most people will have a view on this similar to
> >mine.
>
> Let's let those others speak for themselves, then.

They have, to me, when we've discussed it. Several people. I'm not naming
names because they would hold no meaning for you. :) I don't know how many
people on the list are following this thread, anybody want to speak up?
>
> Freedom of individual opinion, which is always raised when debating this
> show, will not stop me from arguing my points on a forum intended
> for such
> until some sort of consensus is reached.

Oh, I in no way meant for you to stop. There are certain points in the show
that can be argued to conclusion because they are fact, such as whose soul
is in Unit-01. Other points are left far more open to interpretation because
there is no way to prove who is right and who is wrong. This is one of those
points and the best that can be hoped for in the area of understanding is "I
think I know what went on." But in the way of such things, not everybody
will grasp the same conclusion.
>
> >not like live-action. In live-action, you take what you can get
> and you can
> >try your damndest to make things look right.
>
> I've heard this one before, too. But the facts are that we know
> this is the
> way fluids behave in vacuum/zero-G, and we cannot know the intent of the
> animator.

Indeed. This is not one of the areas I thought was open to interpretation
because I thought it was pretty obvious. How wrong was I. :)
>
> >The crosses are still on earth, rei falls, and the black mooon gets grid
> >coordinates on it, then explodes over her.
>
> Then you will notice, I'm sure, that after the Black Moon bleeds
> on Lilith,
> and explodes, then the glowing cloud which I take to be the
> collected souls
> floats downward and in the next angle is seen to be spreading
> outward over
> the Earth's surface away from Lilith.

Looked to be downwards but I could not tell from the angle if they were
meant to impact on earth itself or continue on in a low orbit.
>
> >We then get shots of absolute desolation.
>
> (snip)
>
> >Shinji then attempts to choke Asuka to death. WTF? He said he
> >was going to stay behind to think things through, reflect on his
> life. So he
> >progresses from choking his chicken to choking Asuka. I suppose
> that's more
> >positive?
>
> Relevant?
>
Are you questioning whether my jab was relevant to the discussion at hand?

> >  Shinji crumples and gasps out sobs, almost wretching, the most
> >horror-stricken and helpless sort of crying I've ever heard.
>
> Ogata Megumi is a brilliant VA.
>
Indeed. The quality of the VA's in this show is why I simply cannot stand
the dubs. Ugh. Talk about sucking the life from a scene with only a voice.
And the VA for Maya is the woist!

> >  I can only
> >imagine someone sobbing like that if they'd just seen their entire world
> >destroyed before their eyes and were coming to terms with the
> fact that they
> >are the only person left alive, aside from the one other person
> in the world
> >he can't stand.
>
> Well, as far as interpretation goes, I think that's called a stretch. You
> can't tell me you know there is no hope for humanity from the way
> Shinji's
> crying! Disregarding your interpretation of events, just consider
> everything he's been through within the whole movie. Comforting, hopeful
> words from mother and friends aren't going to erase everything he
> witnessed...

I'd much rather see things you way. For me, the end of EVA is not a sad
ending, it is not a tragic ending, it is a pointless ending. From what I can
see, everyone is dead and thus there was no point to anything that went on.
Your interpretation makes things much happier. People will be climbing out
of the soup any minute now, then they'll start putting the world back
together. Your view makes it a sad ending but with a hope shining bright in
the distance, a hope that the world could be put back together. Actually,
gives it a similar feel to the old Macross episode, the big battle for
earth. Just about everyone on Earth was killed in the Zentraedi bombardment.
Rick rescues Lisa from the ruins of the Grand Cannon base. They're sitting
on the ground outside the base discussing what has happened. Rick mentions
that they have to consider the possability that the SDF-1 was destroyed and
they're the last two people left alive on the planet. Not too dissimilar to
EoE. Then they see the SDF-1, battle-scorched but still under control,
descending into a blast crater. The SDF-1 survived. Macross city survived.
There would be a chance to start over. Rick fires up his Valkyrie and they
fly towards the super-dimensional fortress.

The major difference between this situation and EoE is that we see visual
proof that there is hope. But o well.

> Think of it this way: Accepting Instrumentality was the easy way,
> right? We
> could all lose our individuality forever and never have to be
> incomplete or
> do anything again. The easy way to live. But Shinji (understandably)
> rejected that, and so must deal with everything *the hard way*. The world
> is ruined. There is no civilization. Individuals won't return until they
> can each imagine themselves (however long that may take for people who
> *weren't* *in* *Evas* *during* *Third* *Impact*). THIS is the hard way to
> live. But at least it's living.

I think that if this was the intended effect, just a wee bit more dialog
would have cemented it. In as much EVA discussion as I've read, I have not
seen anybody interpret it this way. And interestingly enough, most fanfics
I've read don't consider it this way, either. The only most third impact
fanfic I've read sees it exactly in what you would say are the most narrow
of visual terms, with only Shinji and Asuka surviving. The LCL is not humans
waiting to be reborn, it is simply a nutrient-rich slush they end up eating
to survive.
>
> I'm aware of the true physical consequences of exploding an
> artificial moon
> in *extremely* low orbit over an inhabited planet. For anyone
> with a little
> spare time look through
>
> http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html
>
> Its very interesting :)

Yeah, it's a really great article.
>
> >Ooooookay, the empire is destroyed, the rest of the galaxy is still safe,
> >all is well, right? Except for the part about all Luke's friends
> dying, the
> >heart of the rebel fleet getting anihillated, and Luke being the
> last human
> >left alive on a dying world in a remote star system. Yeah, he can hop in
> >that shuttle and fly back to civilization. You think he's gonna rebound
> >after all this? I don't think so. I think he'll be an emotional vegetable
> >for a long time after this.
>
> That would have been a cool ending!

Us being the sick bastards that we are, yes. Any ending that results in the
total anihillation of all Ewoks is a cool ending, even if we have to take
out half the galaxy to accomplish it. :)
>
> >But again, opinion, everyone is entitled. I just think that yours
> >would be in the minority of those who watched it.
>
> If you mean the minority of *everyone* who has seen EOE, then
> maybe. Except
> that the people who have analysed Eva as much as I have, and have
> accessed
> all of the literature and canon info (most members of this list
> and maybe a
> few other forums) *do* form the minority.

Well, it's certainly been an interesting discussion. :)
>
> Also:
>  >If
> the souls are supposed to be different then why not make them
> blue or purple
> or whatever, any color other than red? Then things would be more
> obvious to
> the viewer.<
>
> Don't blame him for the animators' decisions.
>
>From what I understand, nothing hit the screen without Anno's direct input.
I know when I work with the artist on my comic, I give specific instructions
on what visual elements are crucial to the scene and have to look a given
way and which elements are completley left to his discression. While the
finished panels can often times end up different from what I envisioned, the
intent is always still there.

> Also:
>  >I never saw the enhanced versions of those episodes. Are the "red dots"
> similar to the ones in EoE? Are they supposed to be souls or not? <
>
> This scene was only in DEATH. The dots are very similar to the ones which
> rose from the surface as humanity was liquidated in EOE. As to their
> nature, there is no information. I think they are mainly there to
> look cool.
>
Hehe, that's part of the problem of trying to get too deep into this stuff.
"Why does Rei have wings when she becomes MegaRei?" "Because it looks cool."
:)