[EVA] Ghost Rei in Episode 01 was RE: The soul in Eva 00...

Gwern Branwen gwern0 at gmail.com
Mon Dec 7 20:21:12 EST 2009


On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 2:22 PM, V V <frumious99 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> You don't need to quote me material that I myself wrote; nonetheless this has nothing to do with prophecy.

Good, one less thing to argue over.


> That's kind of silly.  Well, either way, Rei isn't very emotive; and it never struck me that she had to do a whole song and dance to say "hello" and "goodbye"

Well, come on. Even Rei could manage a twitch of a finger or a nod or
a blink. I'm not asking for a genki-girl spaz-out but any movement or
even a posture that suggests sorrow or wistfulness or farewell or
anything!

> ....it's "bookending" the parts of Shinji's life when its dominated by Evas and Angels.  The timing isn't...arbitrary: it's seconds before he sees the first Angel.

Equally well explained by the thematic purposes; it'd be silly to have
a Rei mirage *after* Shinji has seen a rampaging Angel. It'd be like
the attic in a horror movie creaking after everyone is dead.

> As for her final appearance, its when Instrumentality is finally over, sort of like a way of signifiying that things truly are over and the Evas and Angels and Seele plots won't dominate Shinji's life anymore.  It's not about Shinji and "Rei 2", but sort of signifying when he's entering and leaving the part of his life that all of these giant monsters center around.

An interpretation I like, but quite plausibly a retcon and so it
doesn't help us understand what was intended in Ep 01. Understanding
NGE's evolution is a major part of understanding where it ended up.
Historians for millennia have exhorted people to understand the past
so they can understand the present.

> "We have not one single example of time-travel in any direction*,
> which for a series that freely deals in all sorts of bizarre physics &
> tech & reality-warping is kind of striking."
>
> No, in End of Eva, we already see that little Avatars of the Rei/Adam/Lilith Hybrid appear to Ritsuko and Misato...*before* the Hybrid is formed; also after her death.  Only the Hybrid can do that, not the Angels, Evas, Adam, or Lilith.
...
> Do you...pay attention?  The little Avatars of the Rei/Lilith/Adam Hybrid that get sent around during End of Eva don't LOOK like the Hybrid itself, they look like Rei in school clothes.  Exactly like the ones that appear to Misato and Ritsuko.  And this is EXACTLY what we see in episode 1.
...
> ....but Rei/Lilith doesn't exist in episode 1.  The Hybid only exists in the finale.  Thus, time travel is needed.  Moreover, we *already* see, within End of Eva itself, that it is capable of time travel.
...
> Time travel would be needed to explain how a Rei avatar can appear after the death of the Hybrid.  The "half-awake Lilith sending projections" theory can't really support that.

We don't want time travel in Evangelion because any time travel upsets
important points. If Gendo could have the power of gods, why would he
prefer to destroy the human race and reunite with Yui's mind/soul
stuck in Eva-01 instead of seeking to go back and relive his life with
Yui again, or prevent her from the experiment?
If time travel is a possibility for Rei-Lillith, why does Shinji 'step
forward' into the future and not pop back a hundred years? If he is
all Complemented and mentally cured, both should be equally acceptable
in being the real world, and 1915 at least has food which isn't dead
Evas or liquified cannibalism.
And so on. I think 13 years of fanfics have established that time
travel & Eva is a bad idea.
Anyone being able to control time sends the wrong message.

Besides, quantum mechanics doesn't give you any meaningful
time-travel, and Anno & co. likely wouldn't know of any method were it
to exist.

Other solutions are possible and do not require violence to the story & meaning.

I think you disregard Lillith's ability to send simply by saying Rei
wasn't joined with her yet; but what of the tunnel scene with an
independent Rei doing stuff? Lillith is a Seed of Life, suppressed
only by the invincible Lance of Longinus. Who's to say she can't
manage one feeble bit of telepathy? (I think it's not a real
appearance but just a mental image to Shinji; the cars don't swerve or
act abormally as they ought to if the drivers had seen it as well.)
And at the final scene, there are multiple possibilities. Rei-Lillith
could be not yet finished dying. Big things die slow, after all, and
this would make the farewellness more poignant. Or there could be a
Lillith embryo left. That'd be logical even; Adam in 2I was surrounded
by a sea of LCL and destruction, but he had something left. Lillith
won the fight; why couldn't there be enough left to do some telepathy?
And Lillith surviving makes the ending a little less grim, as life can
go on.

The little Avatars work as well either way; Lillith while inactive was
communicating with Rei sometimes, wasn't she? If Rei is her active
part and has part of her soul, she's a perfectly plausible image to
send instead. (You'll note that Lillith's giant slug shape doesn't
show up much in EoE - it's all Rei and Kaworu and stuff.)

And then there's Yui. Everyone admits Yui in Eva-01 was around at the
right times. She has the interest in Shinji to be sending out messages
possibly warning him of trouble in Denmark, and we know of their
telepathic bonds *cough* synch ratios, I mean. And Rei's body *is*
Yui's body, with different hair & eye color. The same point applies as
with Lillith; Rei is the closest thing Yui has to a normal body. The
farewell works as well, but here the lack of emotion is not such a
proble: Yui is just checking in one last time on Shinji, seeing that
he now has a companion against whom he can define himself.

Neither Lillith nor Yui requires much bullet-biting. So what if
Lillith didn't die immediately after Shinji punched out, or still has
an embryo around? So what if Yui warned Shinji and checked in on him
at the end? (Does he notice the last one? I'm not sure.) Neither of
those is odd, and they don't involve all the additional questions time
travel raises.

> Don't reduce this to "End of Eva was made up spur of the moment as revenge on fans with no connection to the series"

I don't know why you keep bringing up Anno's Revenge, Sean McCoy, and
hippie Tolkien fans in your replies to me, since I have never espoused
any of the 3, but it's getting tiresome.

-- 
gwern


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